I’m just going to share these YouTube movie previews with minimal comment, since I have already talked here in the past about my experiences with sleep paralysis.
If you’ve never experienced it, be advised that sleep paralysis really is as thoroughly and deeply shattering as the people in these videos make it out to be. I am, however, beginning to suspect that the level of intensity may vary more dramatically from person to person than I previously thought. I know some people who have experienced it and, although they found it to be quite unpleasant while it was happening, simply brushed it off later. Perhaps they didn’t experience, or didn’t remember, the typical hypnagogic visions, and simply knew it as an experience of half-waking paralysis. Whatever the reason, for them it was nothing more than a pesky disruption in their sleep habits whose effects extended no further than the night of the episode itself, whereas for me it was — and still is, whenever it recurs — a thoroughly devastating experience whose influence leaks into the overall tenor of my waking hours and general worldview. Again, watch the videos.
(Note, by the way, that I regard The Fourth Kind as flawed but enthralling nonetheless. And the horror portrayed by the actors is entirely true to life.)
Matt, thanks for bringing this issue up for your readers once again. There is something significant here, not only in the horrific experiences, but also for the overlap these experiences have with religious studies, spirituality, and the fantastic in pop culture.
Indeed you’re right, John. This is striking me more and more as a truly viable and vibrant area of inquiry.
I have experienced sleep paralysis three times in the past six months, and each experience was equally terrifying. Lying in the dark, seeing shadows, complete silence, the only part of your body that’s moving is the tips of your fingers.
Not only did my first experience with sleep paralysis change my life, but it lasted so long that I honestly believed that I had died or was dying in my sleep.
I belive my sleep paralysis experiences were brought on by sleep deprivation and lifestyle changes…but the most common cause is narcolepsy (for those who wanted to know <_<)
Thank you for weighing in and sharing your experience. It sounds like your experiences definitely fall on the worser end of the mild-to-awful spectrum that I speculated about above.
As with you, my own SP episodes have sometimes occurred in tandem with sleep deprivation and dramatic life changes. In fact, the first one occurred about a month after I graduated from college and was casting about desperately for a career direction while looking at the looming probability of getting married. Lots of life changes and sleep deficits in there.
I wish you the best of luck with the situation. I found my own affliction resulting in a heightened creativity that poured into literary and musical channels, even as it began to make my nights and then my days progressively nightmarish.
Hi Matt –
I found your site via a Google search on Sleep Paralysis. I have experienced intense manifestations of the phenomenon after becoming a Christian in 1994. Since then, I have written extensively in journals over the course of the last sixteen years, up to the present day. I have documented every single aspect of each of the more intense experiences in writing. From these observation, a distinct pattern and characteristics have emerged quite plainly. I will also state for the record that my life could be categorized somewhere between “normal” and “boring”. I’ve good health,take no medications,I exercise, have a good job, etc. There is nothing traumatically abnormal about my 41 years of life. That being said, here’s what I’ve noticed in my sleep paralysis over the years.
1. Consistency of time and place. Usually in the period of time between midnight and four in the morning and most always in the bedroom.
2. The undeniable sensation of the presence of a being or beings, that I am being intently observed and sometimes physically attacked in various ways.
3. Fear and the absence of anything good. A sinister and horrifically palpable presence of evil.
4. The inability to speak.
5. The inability to move.
6. An unusual sound or sensation of rushing wind which almost always creates a rather intense episode of goosebumps.
7. A very heavy and hot sulfuric odor I’ve smelled while fully awake.
8. The physical characteristics of this “presence” have consistently been something that has ranged in height from three to eight feet, cloaked in a tattered, black covering of some sort. It either flits or hovers around the room in a rather disconcerting fashion. I’ve even seen it’s face once. I would say it had the classic oversized eyes and a serpentine sort of appearance, but the face was horizontally elongated, like Jabba the Hut.
9. Nightmares of epic proportions where I’m constantly in peril or surrounded by the most awful evil sensations.
10. The ability to “see” my room, albeit in a very distorted and dark sort of way. Many of the more intense episodes I experience seem quite prolonged and involve what seems to me like a hurculean effort just to try and gain a clear field of vision, as if something is wrestling with me and deliberately trying to prevent me from seeing.
All this to say, I believe sleep paralysis is demonic. Back in the mid 90’s I thought I was having mini-strokes. Yet it didn’t follow because I had no other symptoms of a stroke after waking. I thought maybe it was some other sleep disorder, like sleep apnea. I’ve never felt like I was ever suffocating, though, just paralyzed. But the fear and evil aspect was always a part of it, which caused me to associate it with the demonic realm.
What has kept the “night vists” at bay has been the name of Jesus. Each and every time I’ve been able to think of Jesus or say His name out loud, I am instantly set free from the bondage. It has been in those waking moments, right after calling upon the name of the Lord, when I’ve sat up in bed with my heart pounding, that I’ve smelled the odor I described above.
After praying, the rest of the night passes uneventfully in undisturbed tranquility.
I share my thoughts reluctantly with others. When I have shared these things with people in person, I get the incredulous looks and sideways glances. Even some fellow believers have attempted to explain my experiences through the lens of modern psychology. Yet I believe the “scientific” explanations offer little in the way of fully explaining what I’ve observed and experienced over the last sixteen years. One clinician’s findings on SP suggested that the “evil” I was experiencing wasn’t real.
What does one mean by “real”? There is something physically, mentally and spiritually happening. It’s a war, in my estimation. Scripture says in the book of Ephesians, chapter 6 – “Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.”
For the last sixteen years Matt, it has been the name of the Lord Jesus Christ which has, without fail, every single time, broke the stronghold of what secular clinicians call Sleep Paralysis.
So for the last several years, the “visitations”, while still formidable and a bit disconcerting, have come to be something like, “Oh, it’s you, again.” followed by either thinking or saying “JESUS!”
Thanks so much for sharing your experiences and insights, Dan. Your careful chronicling of the episodes is most impressive and useful. I’m sure many a clinical researcher of sleep paralysis would be overjoyed to talk with someone like you.
You wrote, “What does one mean by ‘real’? There is something physically, mentally and spiritually happening.” To which I’m inclined to respond, “Exactly!” The subjective experience of SP is what it is, regardless of what objective causes or explanations might be deduced. And I, in a manner not identical to but akin to what you describe, am inclined to put some weight on the validity of experience as experience. The whole issue also raises the possibility of things that are “subjectively objective,” as in, truths and realities that are “really real” but whose reality inheres not in the physical world of extension and phenomena but in the realm of subjectivity itself.
Again, thanks for weighing in. And best of luck with your ongoing bouts with SP.
The above thoughts posted by Don are exactly my thoughts on the situation. I am a science minded skeptic, however, my sister used to suffer from sleep paralysis and I would always awake with a start and know she needed me to touch her so she could break free. The only time I had ever experienced it was if I was sleeping with her and she was experiencing it. I am able to ward it off a bit more easily than some, maybe because I am not terrorfied by it, nor do I fear it. I know I am stronger than whatever is trying get a hold of me.
However, last night I experienced it first hand on my own. It was a very strong horrible presence, first I smelled something horrific, then felt the pressure on the blankets, and then I felt the the intense heat on my stomach. Then I was struggeling with whatever it was in the paralyzing state. I quickly overccame it.
I turned to my side, but the presence was back, with a chorus of voices and single louder voice. I refused to hear it and sang a song to drown it out. Finally I overcame it. My husband awoke with a start because he thought I was calling for him.
I agree with Don. Jesus is your best defense in this situation, I am not a church goer, but I know that Jesus will protect all from evil, no matter how you feel about yourself, Jesus will not turn his back on you.
I don’t discuss this with others either, but I think it is important to let others know that I agree with Don, Jesus is your best defense. Also, this presence becomes less powerful as you grow less afraid and understand your own strength against them, you don’t need to fear them, just get rid of them!
Hi Lynne –
Thanks for posting.
The battle is real. The demonic realm is real. Jesus is real. A true Christian, struggling or thriving, attending church or struggling to attend, whatever state of a true believer may be, he or she has been given full authority over the principalities and rulers of darkness in this present age in Jesus’ name and in His power, by His blood. We do not wrestle with “flesh and blood” in sleep paralysis. It’s not a “psychological” condition, it’s a real, physical entity, poised to tear man away from his Creator and destroy his soul (1 Peter 5:8 and Ephesians 6). James 4:7 says to “submit to God, resist the devil and he will flee from you.”
As I mentioned previously, I’ve nothing health or emotional wise to suggest a “reason” for my wrestling with sleep paralysis. It comes from without, from the pit of hell itself. No amount of medicine or exercise keeps it away. It is dispelled by the Word of God.
I would also go so far as to suggest that the sleep paralysis “visitors” have much more to do with depression than anything physiological. After all, depression can lead to self-destructive behaviors. And “destruction” of man is what the demonic realm is after.
The demonic realm is relentless in its onslaught but is powerless over the life of a true Christian.
Quoting Scripture is the best remedy. Praying before bed and going through the bedroom and house speaking outloud and rebuking the evil with the Word of God keeps the demons in their proper realm. I leave a Bible open on my nightstand as well.
Last night, interestingly enough, I had a very brief encounter. The rotten, acidic smell actually woke me up. I knew “it” was hovering somewhere nearby eventhough I saw nothing. Huddled under the covers, not fearful, but defiant, I said, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan” and went back to sleep without further incident.
The Lord’s best to you in your fight. I think there are many people who have this experience but are fearful of saying anything because of the nature of our “scientific” and “rational” modernism. We haven’t a natural explanation to describe what mostly seems very “supernatural” and if we told our friends or others, we think perhaps be judged as somewhat delusional or paranoid.
Take heart. Submit to God, resist the devil and he will flee from you.
Sincerely,
Dan
Hello Matt –
Thanks for taking the time to respond as well. Just after I’d written the above post, not but a night later, I had another episode. This one was one of those rare times where I was awake. Fully awake. I remember jerking out of my sleep, eyelids popping open and then the uneasy moment of recognizing the “presence”. But I was ready for it. I knew “it” was back with a bit of wrath. I could feel the doubled-up energy in the room, it was thick and palpable. Within seconds after waking, it made itself known. I braced myself and was able to call upon the name of the Lord rather quickly.
With eyes wide open, I first felt the goosebumbs and then the rushing, cold wind came down upon me from above in a circular pattern, like it was passing over me more than once. I can’t seem to prevent it’s appearing, but I can, by God’s grace, make it leave.
It knew I was awake and alert. What is odd is that I knew I wasn’t physically bound but the sensation of evil and the fear was what actually kept me from moving. I didn’t want to jump out of bed and deal with it. I was scared. The “thing” is still a formidable and frightening entity. I forget that in the daylight sometimes.
Since I was concious, however, I was able to shout Jesus’ name and instantly it went away.
I think the phenomenon would most certainly be a great deal more disconcerting for me if I didn’t know what it was. After sixteen years and countless first-hand observations, interactions and documentation, however, I am convinced this phenomenon, especially the sort which is associated with panic, fear and evil, is demonic.
I deal with it on that level every time and every time find instantaneous release.
What has made even more sense to me is that now as an adult, I can understand what haunted me in my childhood. And when I hear of children who tell their parents that there is something in their room at night, I shudder. That was me as a kid.
A few nights prior to my original post, I had an event where I felt the entity attempting to pull my legs out of the bed. I was desperately groping for sight and vision, trying to yell, scream, speak “Jesus!” but it seemed like it took several moments before I could actually do it. I had the concious thought that this thing wanted to take me to hell. I even thought I’d heard or dreamed it saying “Mine! He’s mine. Give him to me!” It was awful. I remember thinking that as I felt my legs being tugged.
I woke up feeling like I had been wrestling with something far stronger than myself and was glad I was alive and not in hell. After many of these manifestations, I am often utterly relieved it goes away or the terror-filled nightmares were only just dreams.
Oldhickory68@hotmail.com for anyone wishing to drop me a line or correspond further about SP experiences.
Thanks for the forum, Matt, and your reply.
Sincerely,
Dan
I had a very brief episode early this morning a bit after 1 a.m. I was dreaming I was having a conversation with a dear friend of mine who is an older, devout Christian lady who regularly prays for me. As we were talking in the dream, the lights went out.
I recall saying, “Hey!” because not only did the lights go out, my conversation with my friend was cut off like a dropped cell-phone call. On far wall in the room where we were appeared a shadow of a rounded, bulbus head. There was a moment where I recognized the “dream” was more of a reality and awoke almost immediately. For a second or two after I opened my eyes, I saw my bedroom and knew I was alert and awake, but also felt the horrible presence of evil once more. Immediately, I felt the goosebumps and a brief episode of being bound, the paralysis. Yet because I was concious and awake before I was bound, it was much easier for me to call “Jesus”.
The paralysis lasted only a few seconds. I was freed immediately and had the benefit of observing what I can only describe as a very faint circular shape slowly and hauntingly ascending from my bed to the far corner of the room where the wall and ceiling meet. Within this faint circular entity were small, pulsing light orbs, not the “stars” you see before you pass out, but distinct, greyish light pulses. In the middle of this round mass was a dark center.
The “thing” sort of hung on the wall like a spider or fly. I continued quoting Scripture watched it slowly disappear. Being awake and knowing this thing was lingering gave me a prolonged sensation of goosebumps, but I was not really that afraid.
I remarked outloud to the entity that it showed up a bit earlier than usual. It was a little after 1 a.m. and not between the hours of three and four when it normally appears.
For me, it is further confirmation that what I have experienced is not anything I’m making up, but a regular and systematic attempt at keeping me bound, not just physically, but spiritually. This entity has an odor, a physical appearance, habitual manifestations that display a regularity of tactics that bespeak of intelligence, all at a certain time of morning.
It also has a tremendous aversion to the name of Jesus.
Regarding sleep paralysis, I’ve read things which suggest that your brain prevents you from doing certain things while you sleep; that it prevents you from acting out your dreams. I do believe this is true, but I do not believe it is an adequate explanation for what I’ve encountered. Most of the time, I’m not dreaming of cliff diving or flying, or any sort of activity that could be acted out in my sleep whenever I’ve had bouts of sleep paralysis. Something is attempting to terrify me through a nightmare of some sort and/or I awake from a dream fully aware that there is an evil presence in my room.
I write these things in hopes of encouraging others to consider their own bouts with SP and to have the victory through them as I regularly experience. Thanks for letting me post, Matt.
i havent had them for a couple of years, the last one i was punched in the face, no joke but i started to get a small one again last night not looking forward to it if i start getting them again
What is this Christian propaganda? I’m all for Jesus (very good avatar — like Buddha, Ghandi and Goddess) but not the bigotry that often follows his believers.
What of those who were raised in different parts of the world who were not raised (or brainwashed by advanced technology) to believe in him? Don’t be silly.
Jesus is no different than the god Dionysus (born of a virgin, performing miracles, having 12 disciples, etc) only Dionysus is a lot older and not of Christian — but pagan!
Jesus wasn’t born in December 25th. Yet Christians conveniently took the pagan holiday Winter Solstice in order to force conversion upon the pagans.
Knowing the truth about the origin of Christianity makes it hard for me to believe it is hardly “the one TRUE path.” Such pious clap trap and bias nonsense.
Mind you, I am far from an atheist, but my goodness… try to speak some sense and not aim your material at “a specific group of dogma.” Especially one that no one following it can agree with fully.
With that said, I am fully disappointed with what I thought were intelligent people speaking about the possible deeper “realms” around this phenomenon.
No. Just a group cult speculating their thoughts for reassurance of their beliefs.
cult |kəlt|
noun
a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object
So no offense on calling it what it is.
Thanks for weighing in, Aria. I have to point out that your uber-reductionistic stance toward Christianity — your approach of arguing that it’s “nothing but” and “no different than” some of the other religious and spiritual traditions — hardly does it justice.
You’ll note, of course, that I’m not one of the people who argued what I think you and I both regard as the Christian mythological position in the conversation above. I’m the proprietor of this blog, and I’ve just allowed the conversation to unfold as it has. I, too, view much of what’s been said as being tainted by an excessive religious/spiritual literalism.
That said, I think you’ve fallen into an equal, in fact a complementary, error by trying to reduce what’s specific, unique, and special about Christianity (just as all of the great religious traditions are specific, unique, and special in their own ways) to something else. Like the other religions, it’s more than just the sum of its historical, sociological, psychological, political, and economic bases. Reductionism, the rampant modern-day desire not just to explain things like religion but to explain them away by analyzing them down to material causes and then claiming they’re “nothing but” those causes, is corrosive and incorrect. It’s a hangover from 19th-century scientism.
Then there’s the fact that your tone implies a real emotional attachment to what you’re saying, as if your sense of self is inappropriately invested in these things, so that you feel personally threatened somehow when you see people saying things like they’ve said here (as evidenced by your anger or irritation, which is entirely superfluous to the correct intellectual recognition that some comments in this conversation have been offered from a viewpoint that fails to recognize the error in conflating religious mythological language with statements of literal truth).
But — seriously — thank you again for commenting. I’ve loved watching this interaction unfold at my blog. And in the fact of your comment I found an opening to share my own thoughts about where this has all gone.
Hello Matt,
I received an email recently and saw the comments above and wished to weigh in.
I agree with your assessment of Reductionism, however how does one differentiate between “statements of literal truth” and “religious mythological language”? That, too, seems a bit reductionistic. To lump, say Christianity under the umbrella of myth is far too simplistic and an uncritical denunciation. Not saying you’re necessarily doing this, just using it as a common example.
As I see it, what one has is a set of presuppositions with which one critiques others. Myth or religion has become a dust bin category in the modern world that has taken on anti-intellectual connotations. To collectively lump Christianity in with general myths or other ancient religions is to have only a superficial cultural and historical understanding of its contributions to our civilization. “Knowing” what is true in the Christian faith and in a general sense requires a certain type of faith.
Take empiricism for example, which is one aspect of a reductionistic/materialistic outlook but one that has nevertheless been utilized in criticizing Scripture.
Can empiricism itself withstand the rigors of its own standards, however? Can one prove the necessity or the primacy of empiricism using its own criteria? In other words can it be proven that empiricism is the only way by which we can know truth? No, there is a bit of philosophical materialism imbedded within it that the empiricist must accept by faith. Essentially, he requires of himself that only what is true is what can be handled by the senses. But that belief in and of itself cannot be proven empirically, it is a belief accepted on faith.
As far as Christianity being clap trap, etc. to the above post by Aria, I would say that her comments reflect her belief that she must be in possession of THE WAY. To know what is wrong is to know, or claim to know, what is right.
“Then there’s the fact that your tone implies a real emotional attachment to what you’re saying, as if your sense of self is inappropriately invested in these things, so that you feel personally threatened somehow when you see people saying things like they’ve said here ”
Ehm, no. But you’ve given me the perfect material to prove my point. These “assumptions” and “speculations” that you state as “facts” about anyone who disagrees with you is precisely what makes the specific religion utter bigotry. “You must have some sort of psychological/emotional insecurity if you disagree with me!” def. for bigoted: (obstinately convinced of the superiority or correctness of one’s own opinions and prejudiced against those who hold different opinions)
Now that’s quite a tone.
The same way you will “someday suffer the wrath of Allah” and “you’re a misguided creature if you oppose Allah’s truths.” (notice the quotations instead of taking the example literally.)
This need to see be supercilious to those who view life differently is what makes religions like that a “cult.” And yes, in a bad way.
And I’d be a coward to respect something like that just for “the fear of hell.” So clearly this “fear” you perceived in me is strictly imaginary and even backwards.
“As far as Christianity being clap trap, I would say that her comments reflect her belief that she must be in possession of THE WAY. To know what is wrong is to know, or claim to know, what is right. ”
That’s “pious clap trap” to be precise, yes. So my pointing out the fact that a cult claiming to be “the one true path” is incorrect, makes me the one who assumes what is “right” and wrong? Interesting logic. Then again, making personal observations are big “no no”s to cults, eh? *shrug* truly a pity.
Clearly you see only black and white. Either YOU’RE claiming there’s “the one true way” or somebody else is. Better let it be you, then, eh? No.
I guess anyone saying it’s wrong to be perfectly alright with the idea that “millions will go to hell (the majority in fact, as Heaven is a “very thin” line of individuals) just because they don’t think and believe like you” (an inevitable trait for humankind especially when you’re diverse to the point where you can’t even unanimously agree on the same translation of your “one true path”! lol)
But I digress.
My reaction was purely exasperation. Try being a Christian in a world where everyone is biased over Greek Mythology and looks at you according to the limitations of their minds (as shown above.) Lovely, eh?
You are callous to the views and experiences other humans who do not see like you. You’ve separated your own race as human beings, and reacted as if I were some sort of miscreant. There are a lot worse things that could have been said against your personal experiences — as most insecure/unstable “trolls” would go for. Then you’d have every right to assume the worst about me.
Instead, it seems you are just reflecting yourself upon me.
“To collectively lump Christianity in with general myths or other ancient religions is to have only a superficial cultural and historical understanding of its contributions to our civilization. ”
Um.. again, no. Christianity is just another form of older mythologies that pretty much have the same basics due to an astrological observation. Which is why Judaism doesn’t accept Jesus (but let’s not get into that one.)
The virgin birth from a god, the son of god, savior of man, performer of miracles… I’ll see if I can find a video to explain…
Although I don’t like the presentation of the video, it’s the only one allowed on YouTube (that I know of) without being removed by angry (and yes, “insecure”) bible thumpers. So from 5:17 on you’ll have a broader idea of why it’s alright to “clump” a religion, when it’s based off of clumps to begin with. The religion itself isn’t diverse, it’s the HUMAN that makes it so.
For further pagan connections this site is just a tiny piece to a point. http://freetruth.50webs.org/B1b.htm
Either way, I’m not here to downplay your beliefs. Only to provide proof that my views are more than just “beliefs taught to me by society/parents.” When you study history and architect (not to mention the original Hebrew bible) you begin to learn more about your holy book… and why it’s exasperating to see people take it way too far.
Divinity is not the domain of Christianity.
And even the word “Demon” is Greek for “Spirit Guide.” Which was vilified by the Christians in order to convert.
Instead of assuming the worst about someone who disagrees (ad hominem style) why can’t you just let them comment without your judging so harshly? Lol
Aria,
By no means was I “assuming the worst” about you (ad hominem style), but simply pointing out that by declaring that Christianity to mythological error, you must have some knowledge of what is not mythological error. That’s all. As I said above, to claim to know what is wrong is to suggest you know what is right, i.e. the right way, the truth, etc. Nothing more.
Not sure Christianity is so easily explained by astrological observation. It wasn’t the stars the early Christians were contemplating so much as it was a man named Jesus.
November,
Life is not black and white. Good or bad. Right or wrong. Life is diverse and complex. This is a fact as bold as light. And truth has many faces.
So merely expressing my disappointment to the limited and bias views of something, does not mean I am claiming to believe I have “the only way.” But again, considering the hammered mindset, I understand why you’d confuse the two.
“It wasn’t the stars the early Christians were contemplating so much as it was a man named Jesus.”
You clearly have not viewed the video or studied the prior religions of Christianity. I fear explaining further will lead me to appear as though I am bashing on your beliefs. And considering how frail people feel about the matter, I respectfully withdraw.
Everyone’s path is different. Even atheists have a place and a reason for this world. Perhaps if Christians were more respectful of that concept, it would easily reflect the respect of others.
Either way, I was merely doing what humans do, expressing myself. I meant no offense and in fact expressed endearment over the Avatar I was forced to grow up with (Jesus.) But also gave my point.
There are others out there who are doing research and looking for answers on similar subjects to this blog post. And not all of us are Christians. (A little acknowledgment and tolerance goes a long way.)
Good day to you.
Sir,
I have offered no criticism, merely observation. My apologies if it has been received in that manner.
Consider your statement above –
“Life is not black and white. Good or bad. Right or wrong. Life is diverse and complex. This is a fact as bold as light. And truth has many faces.”
“Life is not…” To know what it is not or to claim to know what it is not is to know what it is.
“Life is diverse and complex…” Diversity and complexity require a relationship to truth. These terms presuppose the existence of an orderly arrangement, whether they be physical or metaphysical.
I am not suggesting that life is not diverse and complex, of course it is. But let us lay aside the ambiguity which those terms offer for just a moment and suggest that man pursues truth because he has a taste of something coherent and meaningful which both his inward nature and the physical environment by which he is surrounded offers him. The very fact that you suggest “truth has many facets” prooves this. Obviously, then, logically I would have to say, you must know something about truth yourself. And to know truth then is to, by default, be able to recognize falsehoods. So I do not believe there is really any particular difference between the way you and I view truth. Our paradigms may differ, but the epistemological presuppositions are similar. Our knowledge and truth depend upon a fiduciary trust in an authority, one that cannot be established upon purely empirical foundations. That fiduciary trust may be in ourselves or something outside of ourselves. The fundamental question is what is your source and why should it be trusted?
You can no more prove to me that your philosophical presuppositions are any more convincing an authority than I can proove to you that the Bible is God’s Word.
How can you be confident of what I have studied simply by considering my rather disparate comments? Blog dialogue is hardly the place for scholarship or a method by which one can truly know the nature of another’s knowledge. Do you deny the reality of the rich intellectual, moral and spiritual legacy with which Christianity has infused our culture? To be sure, my friend, Dionysis is no basis for a university or a code of ethics. To write it off as unintelligible myth and simply the culmination of previous ancient religions cart blance does no justice to its influence and longevity.
I would not at all consider your particular theological exegesis of the Christian faith as “bashing” it. I’ve seen and heard it “bashed” a thousand times and your comments do not indicate you to be one who traverses such a path of ignorant diatriabe and superfulous argumentation.
I took no “offense” to the comments you made regarding my short reply. I merely brought up one particular example of how the modern world’s demand of empirical evidence for Christianity falls short of its own standards.In the end, it yields a subjective philosophical materialism.
Nowhere in my comments did I think I expressed any intolerance toward those with opposing viewpoints. I have attempted to logically deduce the outworking of the propositions stated.
To suggest that when I person says Christianity is wrong or mythological or whatever the case may be, I believe, does in fact lead one to believe that such a person does know what is right. That is all.
Good day to you, too sir.
November
“Ma’am,” you misunderstand the point.
“To know what it is not or to claim to know what it is not is to know what it is.”
To make an observation of what is boldly natural and even redundant is not to claim my views are the one true path. This is faulty logic.
I suppose your argument is simply this: “Either *I* can claim what is the ONLY path, OR I can accuse you of doing the same if you do not succumb to my views”(?) My acknowledging that this is an erroneous view, is simply an acknowledgment. Any other speculation and assumptions are limited to that — and very susceptible to error. (The same way you assume I’m somehow a male, which proves your unstable grounds to reasoning. But I digress… lol)
By making a faulty assumption and accusing me of “claiming the one true path” you are trying to make a personal attack against someone just for not agreeing to your ways.
I’ve already specified that there are more than one path in life. Christianity is yours. But not everyone’s. And even in Christianity this is apparent. (You call them “denominators” I believe.) However, Divinity is not the domain of Christianity (as it pre-dates it!) And here you are reacting as though I am some sort of miscreant. What an interesting distortion, coming from the supporter of a belief that inspired genocide upon countless of individuals who were diverse and loyal to themselves and their own thoughts on life.
Fancy that.
You can be choppy with your information or refine it.
“Diversity and complexity require a relationship to truth. These terms presuppose the existence of an orderly arrangement, whether they be physical or metaphysical. ”
Perhaps, but how does this contradict my point? There is order and disorder. For one thing to exist, you must have the contrast of another. Diversity plays a role in this.
“Obviously, then, logically I would have to say, you must know something about truth yourself.”
You can either know something by knowing it, or you can just know what something is not. And with that said, reality is NOT limited to dogma. I’ve made no blatant claims to what REALITY IS unlike your holy book and followers do. So why the personal attack? Saying something is not black doesn’t mean I’m saying it is white.
“You can no more prove to me that your philosophical presuppositions are any more convincing an authority than I can proove to you that the Bible is God’s Word. ”
I am not here to prove anything to anyone. Again, that “Christian mindset” of “needing to convert” does not apply to everyone. Especially when I’ve already specified that everyone’s path is different. So please, I ask that you halt your paranoia (or assumptions).
Any system that does not allow you to think for yourself, or denies the nature of humanity itself, is a cult. And individuals like yourself will suffer in a world by trying to go against the inevitable (human diversity.)
What you fail to understand is, even if we all shared the exact same religion (“Christianity” for example) we’d still be too diverse to unanimously agree with “the same translation.” And eventually depart into totally different religions (like Mormonism. Many argue it is far from Christianity… but I digress.)
“Nowhere in my comments did I think I expressed any intolerance toward those with opposing viewpoints. I have attempted to logically deduce the outworking of the propositions stated. ”
I believe trying to assume things about another, in order to belittle or degrade their point is indeed intolerance and even a subtle attempt at an “ad hominem.”
“To suggest that when I person says Christianity is wrong or mythological or whatever the case may be, I believe, does in fact lead one to believe that such a person does know what is right.”
Hmmm… I see where you’ve taken offense, then. By my claiming that everyone’s path is different.. I am instantly saying that “Christianity is wrong.” Why? Because I am going against the bigotry that upholds the entire system? I’m assuming this via the logic you’ve brought unto me. If that’s the case, I’m not opposing Christianity in the least, Christianity is opposing us. (according to your logic.)
Indeed, good day to you as well, Ma’am
(Don’t mind my reflecting the way you address me. I believe your bible has something to say about people treating you the way you treat them.) 😉
Wow, pardon the long response. I’m fresh out of high school and looking to perfect more concision in my writing. But it’s hard when you have to explain something painfully simple. >.<
May I also likewise suggest that the particular position you hold, whatever it may be, toward “truth” is simply one way to believe or to think. Thus, I do not think your particular position is any less a “hammered mindset” than mine. It is “one” particular way among many that vie for cultural recognition. I’ve not yet encountered an ideology, philosophy or religion which does not exclude, limit, prescribe or is devoid of imperatives.
Man often sees things in one particular way, always attempting to cut a path of sense, reason and meaning through his environment, learning as he goes, but not abandoning his tacit understanding that his life and culture are replete with meaning and purpose. As you intuitively note yourself, “Everyone’s path is different. Even atheists have a place and a reason for this world.” To state this is to know something. It is, for you, truth, a part of it anyway, a facet of it, as you say, and by and large I completely agree. But if you truly believe this, as it appears you do, why expend the effort to discount the path of a Christian and attempt to discredit such a way as a falsehood, unless of course you believe your assessment of the Christian faith is rooted in truth itself?
If you grant the atheist a legitimate place at the table, which I would as a matter of dignity and sharing a common humanity if nothing else, why are not Christians afforded such a place? I argue they do have a place and have had a place for centuries. The very “table” for such discussion itself is birthed in the Christian tradition.
But man must see that diversity and complexity as a combined lens by which one views truth is no less limiting or exclusive than anything offered by religion or Christianity or any other philosophy. By their very nature, knowledge and truth are exclusive. Falsehood could not otherwise be discerned. Again, it boils down to foundational paradigms rooted in a fudiciary trust in an authority.
Again, my apologies if my responses have come across as less than respectful or tolerant of others expressions.
Thank you for the space to post and discuss. I respect this as your blog and recognize my guest status as such. No offense intended.
November
Greetings Aria,
You mention above, “You can either know something by knowing it, or you can just know what something is not. And with that said, reality is NOT limited to dogma.”
I find that this sort of statement would consitute non-religious dogma. Declaring that reality is not limited to dogma is dogma.
I think we are agreed that life is more than a creed, but dogma is dogma. Your particular philosophy that you have attempted to promote is a type of dogma. You are aware that your argument is not exempt from being classified as a type of doctrine,
” I see where you’ve taken offense…”
I must once more assert that I have not taken offense in the least, but have attempted to take certain presuppositions to their logical extent. This is not the same as being offended, I can assure you.
” I’m not opposing Christianity in the least, Christianity is opposing us.” I am not entirely certain what you are suggesting here, but it does appear then you know enough about “us” (i.e. “humanity” I take it) and the Christian faith to know that it stands in opposition to who we are.
A more robust and richer understanding of the Gospels, however, I think bring to light that God, in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ, became a man and lived among us, redeeming us, healing us, eating with us, walking with us, telling us stories, praying with us, feeding us, clothing us and even sang among us (at the last supper, Scripture says that Jesus sung a hymn with His disciples).
Now, I would agree with you that Jesus was against man’s sinful nature, but He was most assuredly for man, suffering as a man at the hands of man, to the point of death on a cross.
In order to negate the Christian faith, I feel one should address Christianity head-on where it is most compelling, and this is where the modern world, in my estimation, remains stunningly silent – meaning in suffering, consolation, strength, inspiriation, hope, grace, mercy, forgiveness, love, compassion for the less fortunate.
Call it mythological if you so chose, strip it bare with cold logic, but tell the world with what you plan to console it. Nietzsche asked this question awhile back. I’m not sure anyone’s answered the “madman’s” questions yet. Take a look.
My best to you.
By the way, Aria, do you not think a man capable of such discourse? I am a “sir” and not a “ma’am”. Fear not! If that is the worst that happens to me today, I shall be fine!
Congratulations on surviving high school.
November
“Any system that does not allow you to think for yourself, or denies the nature of humanity itself, is a cult. And individuals like yourself will suffer in a world by trying to go against the inevitable (human diversity.) ”
I missed this above, my apologies for not including it earlier.
If I were to agree with you, I’m not sure how it would work in practice, because you’re telling me what to think and thus it is not thinking for myself, but someone else’s thinking. It also presupposes that I have enough thought within myself to think about, which I know I do not. My thoughts consist mostly of things other people have thought and said and done. I must say that my mind is a travesty of others thinking, botched, broken and borrowed.
So pray tell what is the nature of humanity? For I agree with you that it ought not be denied. But what is it? Ah, there is the rub. To know what or who we are would thus give us the knowledge of right living and what we should and should not do, I think, no? And from where do we get this information and how do we know it can be trusted?
To suggest for example, “I need no creed to tell me what to do or how to live” is an individualistic interpretation of reality that cannot perfectly be put into practice, for the norms of the culture in which such a man finds himself will immediately contradict his personal morality. He must submit to exterior norms if he hopes to get along with any success.
You are a thoughtful person. It would be refreshing to see more high school graduates thinking as you do about things rather than just iPhones and whatnot.
Again, my best to you and no offense whatsoever taken on my behalf.
November
A point of order: I am not Aria. Nor am I novembergulf. Each of you appears to have somehow conflated the other with me. Hi, my name’s Matt Cardin, and this is my blog. My comments are quite easy to recognize within the conversational flux and flow, because the author’s name attached at the bottom clearly says “Matt Cardin.” I’m letting this debate unfold here because this blog has served as an open forum of ideas, mostly my own, since 2006.
Just thought I’d interject that.
A suggestion for Aria: You might consider the possibility that you’re mistaking arrogant-sounding confrontationalism for bold argument. I mean that in relation to your own posts. I suspect you’re not in complete control of your written tone. In other words, I don’t necessarily believe that you are yourself arrogant and confrontational. But your written comments definitely bear more than a passing hint of this attitude, which smacks of youth — which is perfectly fine.
This isn’t a slam but an impartial diagnosis. I used to teach English to high school students. Now I teach college students, including many who are fresh out of high school like you. So this is just to say that I’m in regular and friendly dialogue with your general peer group, age-demographically speaking, so when I comment on your written voice, my opinion is an informed one. If you hear any condescension when I say this, btw, I can assure you it’s in your hearing and not in my saying, because there isn’t an ounce within me. I well remember being a verbally and intellectually oriented just-out-of-high-schooler myself, so why would I condescend?
You’ll also find there’s no valid way to read these observations as an ad hominem attack, because I haven’t said a single thing attacking you. Nor have I even addressed the content of your comments, but have instead limited myself solely to offering observations about their tone, and about your lack of rhetorical control.
But if I were to comment on their content, I’d surely dwell at length on the fact — a word I use advisedly; what I’m about to say is patently a fact, an observable truth within and about what you’ve said here — that you are making galactic leaps of unwarranted assumption not just about the motives of those with whom you’re dialoguing, but about the actual content of what they’re saying.
Case in point: What exactly do you think or perceive my personal position to be when it comes to the Christian religious traditions? (Remember, this comes from me, Matt Cardin, the proprietor of this blog. Look for my name in the signature directly below, and also in the subtitle under the giant “Teeming Brain” title at the top of the page.) Unless you can come up with a good and valid answer to that, then the response you gave to the single comment I entered into this conversation earlier today, now located several posts above, carries no weight at all, because you predicated the whole thing on a very specific assumption about what I think and believe. And I’ll give you a hint: you were wrong. Btw, there’s no lack of evidence within the four years’ worth of this blog’s posts about what I really do think about Christianity, and about religious, spiritual, and philosophical matters in general.
But then, when you responded to me you conflated my words with those of novembergulf, quoting us both and responding to us as if we were the same person. Surely you can see that this doesn’t inspire confidence in the meticulousness of your reading of other people’s words.
But to reiterate something I said earlier: thank you for posting. And you, too, novembergulf. Iron sharpeneth iron, and all that.
I now leave you to play and frolic. Just keep the flames down to a dull glow.
“To state this is to know something. It is, for you, truth, a part of it anyway, a facet of it, as you say, and by and large I completely agree.”
Redundancy would agree, that yes, everyone knows something. Technically. But how is that relevant to my claiming my words are the “one TRUE and only path?” Jesus did that. Not me.
So under what grounds do you (a person who follows a religion that blatantly makes that claim) have a right to point an accusing finger at *me*?
Someone else here accused me of being insecure and fearful of Christianity, I explained that I am not. I’ve studied history and have presented a fragment of that history through a video/link.
What is so complicated here that you are not grasping?
“If you grant the atheist a legitimate place at the table, which I would as a matter of dignity and sharing a common humanity if nothing else, why are not Christians afforded such a place? ”
Where did I say that it didn’t? Again, you back me up against a wall so that I have no choice but to explain my position and then you act as if I am robbing you of your rights to believe. Why the victim view of yourself? Are you insecure?
I simply explained that Christianity is not “the only way.” all this extra nonsense of calumny and assumptions only shows how touchy you are about the matter. And this is why it’s hard for intellectuals to take your dogma seriously.
I apologize if I seemed as though I was belittling of your religion. That would be hypocrisy in it’s bold sense, if I did. However, I just had to conjure material to explain why the calumny given to me was void of point.
However, it is also hypocritical to say that religions like “Paganism” isn’t real since the origins of Christianity is very pagan. 🙂
So with that said, there are more paths than one. And each path is an evolved form of another. (This is a fact based on history.) So my comment was expressing the distaste of limiting this horrors of “Sleep Paralysis” to just one religion. When it isn’t something that just happens to Christians.
Considering the title of the blog is called “The Teeming Brain” and underneath the photos it claims to be a blog about religion, philosophy, and such…. I was under the impression that perhaps it was aware of “other” religions. And not just one.
Clearly, I was mistaken. And this blog is “teeming” with something other than what I had expected.
Aria: See what I wrote above. We basically cross-posted on top of each other. My post above addresses the fact that you’re not clear about who you’re talking to, or whose blog you’re commenting on.
“I believe trying to assume things about another, in order to belittle or degrade their point is indeed intolerance and even a subtle attempt at an “ad hominem.”
Aria, I assume nothing about you or anyone else except the face-value of the propositions and arguments put forth in writing. Nowhere have I made any attempt at belittling or degrading your point of view or Matt’s. Please show me where I have done this. I am utterly aware of the nature of an ad hominem argument and have taken great pains to avoid it.
My apologies if you think otherwise.
Aria,
Some of what you quote was written for Matt and it is my fault I did not make that clear.
In response to what you’ve just written, though, I’d have to say read what Matt just said. I too am a teacher and a writer.
November
Hello Matt,
I appreciate your allowing us to openly debate despite the fact that (and I’ve been very self conscious about this) it’s completely irrelevant to the blog itself.
As for your message… Hmm… I knew that once I apologized for my lack of concision someone would use my “freshly into college” comment against me. Forgive me for finding that predictable. However, here is where I think you are trying to manipulate things to your favor.
“If you hear any condescension when I say this, btw, I can assure you it’s in your hearing and not in my saying, because there isn’t an ounce within me.”
Ah, so you believe my assumptions are my own. But the impression you get of me (despite them not being backed up) is not biased in the least. Especially after I explained my age-group?
How convenient, considering I’ve said many other things and yet the only thing that was caught was my “youth.” Fair enough.
But you’ve seemed to have completely ignored the fact that I was excusing the tone of my writing due to my inability to concise it correctly. So had you have gotten the point, shouldn’t you assume that my words can easily be misunderstood?
Cherry-picking on what little information you can grasp on a stranger who does not share your views does not add to the credibility.
(Notice: I am backing up my assumptions with material. Not telling you something is all in your head, etc.) *shrug* But oh well. Moving forward.
“You’ll also find there’s no valid way to read these observations as an ad hominem attack,”
Mhm. Naturally. By ignoring my point and completely focusing on my age and saying my “tone” is “smack” juvenile — you’re “totally not aiming for an ad hominem.” And good thing too, cause you’ve yet to face up to the material of which I’ve presented.
“But then, when you responded to me you conflated my words with those of novembergulf,”
Sincerely now? I would like to know what material do you believe I blended you both into? Because I clearly remember typing to both of you quite separately. But mentioning your comment to November.
“Surely you can see that this doesn’t inspire confidence in the meticulousness of your reading of other people’s words”
Nor does it add credibility when you make claims without backing them up with proper points.
So far, your long response concluded with the focal point of “You’re wrong. I’m right. You’re writing cannot be taken seriously, etc” And to back this up, you’re using a simple misunderstanding as an example.
Misunderstandings are easily solved. You can calmly explain where I am in error, without having to resort to personal assumptions about who I am as an individual.
And now, I must express my disappointment. Seeing your comment made me pleasantly surprised. But instead of taking the conversation somewhere, you just ended up feeding to the misunderstanding.
1) “By ignoring my point and completely focusing on my age and saying my ‘tone’ is ‘smack’ juvenile — you’re ‘totally not aiming for an ad hominem.’ And good thing too, cause you’ve yet to face up to the material of which I’ve presented.”
In order for me to face up to something, I would have to have advanced a claim and engaged in debate with you, and been confronted by some claim or evidence that challenged my position. But in fact, nothing of the sort has transpired. So I’m asking again: What exactly is the position that you’re imputing to me, such that you think there’s a burden on me to face up to what you’ve said? What claim do you think I’ve made about Christianity, religion in general, or anything else, toward which some or any of your words have been directed? You say that my response to you “concluded with the focal point of ‘you’re wrong, I’m right.'” What is it that you think I’m claiming to be right about? I ask this not rhetorically but seriously, as a request for an answer.
2) “I would like to know what material do you believe I blended you both into? Because I clearly remember typing to both of you quite separately. But mentioning your comment to November.”
Cf. the first several paragraphs of the post where you gave the YouTube and freetruth links. If you were in fact consciously making a distinction between novembergulf and me, it’s nowhere apparent, in fact it’s one hundred percent absent, because you wrote as if you were speaking to a single person who had written both of the passages you quoted — one which was actually from him and one of which was from me.
You also clearly mistook him for the owner of this blog when you facetiously invoked the word “teeming” a few posts above. Either that, or you mistook it for an open forum instead of a personal blog — and a forum where you find novembergulf’s viewpoint to be distasteful and, apparently, definitive. In any event, you were mistaken, which is no shame at all, and I don’t aim the recognition at you as such, like some sort of barbed attack. It just is what it is.
3) “Misunderstandings are easily solved. You can calmly explain where I am in error, without having to resort to personal assumptions about who I am as an individual.”
To repeat what I said in #1 above, what’s the conversation or debate that you think you and I are having? What is it about which you are asking me to engage you and explain how I think you’re in error? Note that something like 99 percent of your dialogue here has been carried out with novembergulf. You only responded briefly to a single part of the brief comment that I originally made earlier today, and in that you were already giving indication that you thought I had said something that I hadn’t actually said.
Ah, well. I’ve already spent too much time bandying this about. Best to both of you.
November,
“In response to what you’ve just written, though, I’d have to say read what Matt just said. I too am a teacher and a writer.”
Ah, so that adds to your credibility? 😉
But in response you your message to me. You said
“I find that this sort of statement would consitute non-religious dogma. Declaring that reality is not limited to dogma is dogma. ”
Haha, technically. This is true. But it is not what I mean. Reality is not limited to a *specific* dogma. Which is where the whole point of “diversity” plays in.
“I must once more assert that I have not taken offense in the least, but have attempted to take certain presuppositions to their logical extent. This is not the same as being offended, I can assure you. ”
Well, I do not understand where you claimed I was bigoted with my belief? (i.e. claimed superior knowledge.)
“I am not entirely certain what you are suggesting here, but it does appear then you know enough about “us”” I didn’t think I’d have to specify I meant “us” as a human race, but fair enough. There you have it.
As for your thoughts on Christianity and the gospels, granted. That is your way of reaching divinity. But it does not apply to everyone.
Simple as that.
So on the subject of Sleep Paralysis, reality is not limited to the belief that there is a Satan and he’s out to get you, for whatever reason (as an example.) This is the dogma I was referring to.
Hence my exasperation. If you don’t understand why a person would be exasperated by such material when something more “broader” was expected, then it is best to just leave at that. Otherwise misunderstandings will continue to unfold.
“Now, I would agree with you that Jesus was against man’s sinful nature, but He was most assuredly for man, suffering as a man at the hands of man, to the point of death on a cross. ”
I’m sorry, but your mythology does not apply to my principles and that is not what I meant. I meant that any religion that forces you to join them (through fear, guilt, love, etc) is against the human race. Cause we naturally follow a different path. (Hence your denominations.)
“In order to negate the Christian faith, I feel one should address Christianity head-on where it is most compelling,”
So, to claim it is not the only path is to negate it. This is precisely the mindset that intellectuals cannot take seriously. It is erroneous.
But thank you for sharing your views, either way.
Ah, I see the error now, Matt.
And I can assure you that you two were not blended in the least.
“the first several paragraphs of the post where you gave the YouTube and freetruth links.”
Indeed, my first message was to you. But considering someone had tossed in a minor commentary I thought I’d throw their quotation in as well. I didn’t however, expect it to blossom into more redundancy.
I even explained to them that I was specifying against the accusation of my being “fearful” (the accusation that *you* made.) Had I believed that November made those claims I would have been more direct towards *them* about it.
“You also clearly mistook him for the owner of this blog when you facetiously invoked the word “teeming” a few posts above.”
Again, you are in error. I was explaining why I was disappointed to find such Christian propaganda in a blogsite that was entitled “the teeming brain” — which also claimed to be about philosophies and religion (plural?)
We are still speaking about the assumptions made of me, instead of the actual point. But fair enough. I presently a little more time to spare.
“To repeat what I said in #1 above, what’s the conversation or debate that you think you and I are having? ”
Had you have my first post, you’d see that you calumny of fearing your religion was incorrectly assumed. Note: The part where I quote *you* are for you. And from there after, the conversation unfolded between me and the other person who jumped in.
Now, November, I’d like to address something with you.
“By the way, Aria, do you not think a man capable of such discourse? I am a “sir” and not a “ma’am”. Fear not! If that is the worst that happens to me today, I shall be fine!”
I’m sorry you’d have worse than “gender confusion” thrown at you today, however, I am not sorry for reciprocating what you did to me.
In one of my closings above, I asked that you not take my calling you “Ma’am” personally as I was reflecting what you had done to me.
Observe:
“As far as Christianity being clap trap, etc. to the above post by Aria, I would say that her comments reflect her belief that she must be in”
You repeatedly were aware of my being “female” until further down into the discussion. I found this curious. So reciprocated the notion. You take offense?
And Matt, your accusing me of confusing the two of you is utterly void.
So aware was I of “who was who” that when you posted your response I lit up with expectation. However, your speaking repetitively over a matter that never happened was a huge put down on what I had expected. lol
Oh well, I hope your days turn out smoother than it has.
Wow I really hope this Aria girl feels embarrassed about this 10 years later. What a brat.
November, if you’re still confused about my having called you “Ma’am” I explain above.
Again I hope your day goes well.